Curse

HawkofStorms · Jan 21, 2010, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Agreeed with Kumu. Tobi, it is against the EULA to share account information with anyone. A.net doesn't want people giving each other accounts, but rather, want people to buy a new account from them. It doesn't matter if you stole it or if you shared it. They are both violations of the EULA. You admitting to a.net it was your friends account was admitting to them you broke the rules. Not knowing the rules or the law is never an excuse. That was a just perma-ban.

Martin Alvito · Jan 22, 2010, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I'm talking a libel case. Defamation. Totally separate case. Totally separate misdeed. The misdeed is that they've sullied my reputation (and yours and several other people's too for that matter) by publicly branding me a liar when I am not.

I think they've got two holes to swim through here.

1) They didn't call you out by name
2) The accusation of libel hinges on the definition of "critical vulnerability", as the text is worded

I also think that you're going to have difficulty proving that the damage to your reputation was sufficiently harmful to merit standing. I know I'd rule it was a frivolous case and toss it, but I'm not an expert. A liberal jurisdiction might have a different take.

greenthumb · Jan 22, 2010, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

greenthumb and others seem to not be noticing the most obvious problem.

Hackers who broke into your NCMA could then auto change your passwords for GW and other games without even needing those passwords. There was no password verification for your old passwords. Once they got into the NCMA, you had access to all the games, regardless of how secure your passwords were.

This was an OBVIOUS flaw which is real. Heck, I'm pretty sure that's still how the password reset function works.

There are posts on the Aion forum about people who had inactive accounts (ie, were no longer paying the $15 a month and no longer playing the game) getting their NCMA's hacked into, getting their password reset, and then the hackers adding game time to their account to use them.

OBVIOUSLY the NCMA had to have been hacked into, because that is the only way to add game time or change the password of an Aion account. This is such an obvious lie that it's just pathetic.

That's an obvious, gaping security hole that I noted here in this thread earlier and the other thread (prior to the New Year's Day fix) and as noted by other players months ago when players urged ANet/NCsoft to review their account security. I was just thinking of other possible lower hanging fruit for the hackers as ANet indicated "very few" (without knowing what's meant by "very few") account hacks involved password changes.

I'm amazed that the below statement (from Aug 2009) is still on Gaile Gray's User Support page on Account Security on the GW wiki site. (How embarrassing.)

Quote:

Many players feel that having an NCsoft Master Account adds another level of security to the game's security.

Meridon · Jan 22, 2010, 12:34 AM // 00:34

On the subject of Anet's subsidiary status to NCsoft, I have something to add. In the end, it all comes down to the type of business ArenaNET is in terms of legislation. In other words, if it's a Joint Stock Company, a Limited company, etcetera. It also depends on the jurisdiction Anet falls under, I suppose it's United States law.

While I'm no expert on US business laws, I take as reference the theory I had on Dutch company jurisdiction, in which case Anet is probably a JSC, with 51% or more of it's shares in the hands of NCSoft. If Anet would want to leave NCsoft, it would mean that they would first need to find another company willing to acquire Anet, such as EA, Microsoft, etc. This new company would then have to negotiate with NCsoft about the purchase of Anet. All in all, a very lengthy and complicated process, which is likely not going to happen anytime soon.

If I had more info on this I would make more effort for a larger analysis. It´s getting terribly late here though so I´m just calling it a night.

Cacheelma · Jan 22, 2010, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

At lease answer people's email when they send in detail information through the official wiki email system.

Unless your email starts with something minipets or masks-related, she won't bother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

On the subject of Anet's subsidiary status to NCsoft, I have something to add. In the end, it all comes down to the type of business ArenaNET is in terms of legislation. In other words, if it's a Joint Stock Company, a Limited company, etcetera. It also depends on the jurisdiction Anet falls under, I suppose it's United States law.

While I'm no expert on US business laws, I take as reference the theory I had on Dutch company jurisdiction, in which case Anet is probably a JSC, with 51% or more of it's shares in the hands of NCSoft. If Anet would want to leave NCsoft, it would mean that they would first need to find another company willing to acquire Anet, such as EA, Microsoft, etc. This new company would then have to negotiate with NCsoft about the purchase of Anet. All in all, a very lengthy and complicated process, which is likely not going to happen anytime soon.

If I had more info on this I would make more effort for a larger analysis. It´s getting terribly late here though so I´m just calling it a night.

I'm no lawyer so I don't know any more than anyone. But, assuming your theory is true, I don't see why ANY company would want to bother with the process of buying Anet off of NCSoft.

After all, let's face it. Anet has... what, a game with 3 milking expansions, restless customer base, unproductive-yet-supposed-to-be-revolutionizing business model. And to top that off, a semi-vaporware GW2? Hell, I don't even know if NCSoft actually owns the "Guild Wars" trademark or not.

A company would sell off its subsidiary or its share if the value is going downhill in accelerated speed. I think that's why we rarely see such buyout happens in this business. I mean, if your subsidiary is doing great and has bright future, why would you want to sell it off? And on a flip side, if a subsidiary or its share is doing badly, who in their right mind would want to buy it??

Chthon · Jan 22, 2010, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Martin, I think we're drifting off-topic here. I'm going to make this my last defamation post. (Presuming no further extreme stupidity from NCSoft...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

I think they've got two holes to swim through here.

1) They didn't call you out by name

a. You can defame several people at once just as easily as an individual. The individual need only show that they were one of the people referred to in the defamatory statement.
b. I've seen an additional piece of evidence indicating that the "list
comment was a reference to me in particular that you haven't seen, and that I don't feel it would be appropriate to share at this time.

Quote:

2) The accusation of libel hinges on the definition of "critical vulnerability", as the text is worded

The test is what a reasonable person would think their statement to mean, not whatever weasel-meaning they meant it to have. "Accidentally logging people into the wrong account isn't 'critical'" doesn't fly. No reasonable person could think the vulnerabilities reported here aren't "critical." The only reasonable interpretation of their statement is that they claim we weren't telling the truth.

Quote:

I also think that you're going to have difficulty proving that the damage to your reputation was sufficiently harmful to merit standing.

Because of the natural of reputational harm, you may bring a defamation suit in the US seeking a nominal $1 plus getting your name cleared in court. I'm not sure if that's a wise way to spend judicial resources, but that's how it works. I believe it's something we inherited from those silly British people.

Martin Alvito · Jan 22, 2010, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

b. I've seen an additional piece of evidence indicating that the "list comment was a reference to me in particular that you haven't seen, and that I don't feel it would be appropriate to share at this time.

That would explain why you're that mad. I figured they were just blowing us off generally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The test is what a reasonable person would think their statement to mean, not whatever weasel-meaning they meant it to have.

Of course, you'd have to have ironclad proof that the specific vulnerability you cite existed. If you've got that, you're golden.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Because of the natural of reputational harm, you may bring a defamation suit in the US seeking a nominal $1 plus getting your name cleared in court.

Didn't realize that standing was that easy on libel.

And with that, let's drop it.

pumpkin pie · Jan 22, 2010, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

Unless your email starts with something minipets or masks-related, she won't bother.

Its an account of what happens* between signing up for the free storage pane leading to the hacked incident. No mention what so ever of anything about game stuffs restored.

Luckily I have copy of all my emails.

The most rofl things that follow the whole thing was, they send me a survey asking for me to rate their performance.

*or what didn't happen. basically haven't done anything listed in the guideline recently provided by Ms Regina link in this OP. except linking my account to NCSoft master account.

-----------x--------------x-----------x------

Just curious, you seems to think its okay for customer support to ignore its customers.

Why would a customer be ignored by customer support if they are asking for their game to be restored? give one good reason.

Cacheelma · Jan 22, 2010, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

Its an account of what happens* between signing up for the free storage pane leading to the hacked incident. No mention what so ever of anything about game stuffs restored.

Luckily I have copy of all my emails.

The most rofl things that follow the whole thing was, they send me a survey asking for me to rate their performance.

*or what didn't happen. basically haven't done anything listed in the guideline recently provided by Ms Regina link in this OP. except linking my account to NCSoft master account.

-----------x--------------x-----------x------

Just curious, you seems to think its okay for customer support to ignore its customers.

Why would a customer be ignored by customer support if they are asking for their game to be restored? give one good reason.

Oh... and I was wondering why you're acting all serious...

Can't you see I was joking? Well, not exactly joking. But I'm not saying it's ok. I just say she sucks and you should've known by now that that's how she is. So unless she gets replaced, nothing good would come out of it.

C4RB1N3 · Jan 22, 2010, 11:19 AM // 11:19

I wonder how many times they will have to tell players these things, really they should already know this from basic internet common sense, and GM Luminary in an Aion GM, so all these benefits such as less bots, less RMT etc etc, pertain to Aion..this thread is somewhat useless to the Guild Wars community, unless people realy need to read all these safety tips for the 100th time.

tasha · Jan 22, 2010, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirmordicia

I wonder how many times they will have to tell players these things, really they should already know this from basic internet common sense, and GM Luminary in an Aion GM, so all these benefits such as less bots, less RMT etc etc, pertain to Aion..this thread is somewhat useless to the Guild Wars community, unless people realy need to read all these safety tips for the 100th time.

Unfortunately relatively small percentage of MMO players actually ever make it to any fansite (I think I've seen a value of 10% being tossed around before) or view the official website of a company on a regular basis. Even if I visit the Guild Wars website regularly, I wouldn't have seen this message. Those that do visit the NCSoft site or the official Aion site or even Guru may never think of protecting themselves in basic ways, or if they're not overly computer literate may not know of keyloggers etc. Not all gamers are computer literate or hobbyists.

Especially on large forums its easy for seemingly obvious messages to get lost or be unfound - if I didn't visit Riverside and only used Guru for trading (as an example) I may never see this thread. It may be that this is the first time that some people have seen the message that NCSoft keep repeating. At that point this message becomes worthwhile as it may have stopped a few people from having their account accessed.

Guess my point is that just because its a tired message for most doesn't mean it is for all.

Meridon · Jan 22, 2010, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

I mean, if your subsidiary is doing great and has bright future, why would you want to sell it off? And on a flip side, if a subsidiary or its share is doing badly, who in their right mind would want to buy it??

To answer your question, this is where the price offered during negotiations comes in. Assuming what I mentioned above about NCSoft owning 51% or more of Anet's JSC was correct, it would mean a company with interest in Anet would be forced to buy Anet shares from NCSoft to become the major shareholder. This could for example be Microsoft or EA, if they would want to compete with Blizzard on the MMO market with GW2.

The price of the shares would first of all be based on market prices. Even though 51% would be in the hands of NCsoft and not out there being traded, it would be likely that a smaller amount of Anet's shares is in fact being sold somewhere on the stock exchange. This would be the starting point for the take-over price.

The determining factors are as you mentioned. If a Anet has a bright future, the buying company would have to pay more than the current market price. As long as the offer is reasonable enough, NCsoft could consider selling off Anet. On the flip side, if Anet has a dark future, and NCsoft is looking for a buyer to get rid of it, they would be forced to set their selling price per share much lower. This is all part of the negotiations.

On the other hand, another company could just as well take over NCsoft, and with it Anet.

Another Felldspar · Jan 22, 2010, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

Unless your email starts with something minipets or masks-related, she won't bother.

Oh good God! This is the most ridiculous statement I've seen, and I've seen some doozies lately. In the 3 years that I've played Guild Wars I've written directly to Gaile with an issue 3 times. In two of those cases she has responded to my e-mail within 24 hours, and I've seen some resolution to the problem. The third e-mail didn't receive a response, but in retrospect probably didn't deserve one, since I was able to settle the matter through NCSoft support and hadn't waited an appropriate amount of time before contacting her.

I'm sorry, I don't usually respond to trolls but someone needs to stand up and call bullshit bullshit. And this is bullshit.

Gun Pierson · Jan 22, 2010, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Jennings

Now if you'll excuse me, I have another gold farmer cartel to ban.

Ni Hao Scott.

You might want to use this as your war song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dkkf...eature=related

Kattar · Jan 22, 2010, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

I'm sorry, I don't usually respond to trolls but someone needs to stand up and call bullshit bullshit. And this is bullshit.

He's not being literal. He's pointing out the general attitude that seems to be apparent with most of the responses from ANet/NCsoft.

Regulus X · Jan 22, 2010, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

He's not being literal. He's pointing out the general attitude that seems to be apparent with most of the responses from ANet/NCsoft.

I've find the following equations to be true:

F2P + Nerfs - Anet(Care) = GW1

and

F2P + Guru(slanderous_posts) = Anet(Care)

HawkofStorms · Jan 22, 2010, 06:11 PM // 18:11

So therefore with the substantive property,

F2P + Nerfs - F2P - Guru = GW1

Nerfs - Guru = GW1

JR · Jan 22, 2010, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Hmm... now that I've actually had a chance to read into this... what a load of crap. Next time, run stuff past legal first before posting it. Flat out lying and saying there are no security vulnerabilities when there are is just asking for a class action against you.

Given the way the message is phrased, I absolutely guarantee it went through legal a number of times.

Deny everything, commit to nothing.

mrmango · Jan 22, 2010, 08:11 PM // 20:11

I liked the diction, but that was pretty fail overall if they meant to get out some new information.

TheRemedy · Jan 22, 2010, 08:29 PM // 20:29

I read this post, it was a bigger waste of time than the game itself.

Summary: As most online games, Anet is concerned of other people making money through their games. The article states that RMT is a 2 billion dollar industry, they are mad that they cannot find a way to tap into this business model without ruining the game. Scare tactics are applied while the article gives the perception that there are more people working on getting gold buyers, and botters banned than there are working on game improvements. Typical game developer BS crying, and the rest of the article just states common sense.

Maybe I'm getting too old for games where dev teams cater to a 13yr old population, or maybe I'm just hating big businesses more since the recent US supreme court ruling has sided with their interests.

If ebay would let you sell virtual items still none of this crap would be happening.